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	<title>Comments for The Wisconsin Lounge</title>
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	<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>From smoke-free Madison to the smokey back room of politics...</description>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;The Lounge&#8221; goes live. by BookerT</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/the-lounge-goes-live/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>BookerT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 02:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=213#comment-128</guid>
		<description>Who is up that early on a Friday?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is up that early on a Friday?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Question? by Sol</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/question/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Sol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=204#comment-127</guid>
		<description>I actually had Scotch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually had Scotch.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Question? by Kyle Szarzynski</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/question/#comment-121</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle Szarzynski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=204#comment-121</guid>
		<description>I have never served on Council, my only experiencing being with the LLPC through Shared Gov and the SSFC.  I have talked with like-minded people who have served, however, and even they would agree the fundamental role of Council is ambiguous.  However, everyone agrees that we need our people in those seats if we want to accomplish a progressive agenda.  It seems the hard part is creating a coherent framework between the grassroots committee - which we envision as being the bottom-up energy needed to build a student movement - and the Council itself.

One point I think you and others haven&#039;t considered is that, regardless of the problems with Council, its aggressive push for the issues outlined above gives our movement so much more credibility than groups like SPD, SLAC or even MCSC  with the administration and other institutions of power, as well as with the press and other establishment entities.  It simply means so much more when our student government is demanding divestment from war profiteers than groups constantly labeled as fringe.  This legitimacy also extends to the student body itself.  A leftist ASM has a lot of potential for increasing involvement in progressive causes.  I think it&#039;s a dialectic, in which increasing activism on campus will radicalize ASM, while that same transformed ASM will then help to create even more activism among students.  

Again, no one is saying our task is an easy one, but we are obviously unified in our belief that a democratic takeover of ASM will only aid in our cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never served on Council, my only experiencing being with the LLPC through Shared Gov and the SSFC.  I have talked with like-minded people who have served, however, and even they would agree the fundamental role of Council is ambiguous.  However, everyone agrees that we need our people in those seats if we want to accomplish a progressive agenda.  It seems the hard part is creating a coherent framework between the grassroots committee &#8211; which we envision as being the bottom-up energy needed to build a student movement &#8211; and the Council itself.</p>
<p>One point I think you and others haven&#8217;t considered is that, regardless of the problems with Council, its aggressive push for the issues outlined above gives our movement so much more credibility than groups like SPD, SLAC or even MCSC  with the administration and other institutions of power, as well as with the press and other establishment entities.  It simply means so much more when our student government is demanding divestment from war profiteers than groups constantly labeled as fringe.  This legitimacy also extends to the student body itself.  A leftist ASM has a lot of potential for increasing involvement in progressive causes.  I think it&#8217;s a dialectic, in which increasing activism on campus will radicalize ASM, while that same transformed ASM will then help to create even more activism among students.  </p>
<p>Again, no one is saying our task is an easy one, but we are obviously unified in our belief that a democratic takeover of ASM will only aid in our cause.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Question? by wilounge</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/question/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator>wilounge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=204#comment-120</guid>
		<description>Kyle,
Honestly, I don&#039;t think you need an effective Council to have an effective ASM.  While I feel that this certainly retracts from the representative democracy ideals of the organization, there are other ways to garner broad student input.  I think the challenge for you will be that creating an organization which a significant portion of the campus feels is representative, you must have space for the entire spectrum of affiliations.  If your campaign branch seems inaccessible, either due to the topics or tactics you chose, you run the risk of either alienating a portion of the student body, which will be harmful when you try to claim to represent them, or you expose your other functions, i.e. financial functions, to the political bickering.  

As I have said repeated, I feel it is absolutely essential that the financial side of ASM be as sheltered as possible from the political debates which are going on.  This means you will have to find alternative ways to open up the organization.  This is the reason why creating a viable council becomes so important, but it almost necessitates a legislative function.  If council is relegated to activist functions it will either be representative, but not functional, or active, but not representative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyle,<br />
Honestly, I don&#8217;t think you need an effective Council to have an effective ASM.  While I feel that this certainly retracts from the representative democracy ideals of the organization, there are other ways to garner broad student input.  I think the challenge for you will be that creating an organization which a significant portion of the campus feels is representative, you must have space for the entire spectrum of affiliations.  If your campaign branch seems inaccessible, either due to the topics or tactics you chose, you run the risk of either alienating a portion of the student body, which will be harmful when you try to claim to represent them, or you expose your other functions, i.e. financial functions, to the political bickering.  </p>
<p>As I have said repeated, I feel it is absolutely essential that the financial side of ASM be as sheltered as possible from the political debates which are going on.  This means you will have to find alternative ways to open up the organization.  This is the reason why creating a viable council becomes so important, but it almost necessitates a legislative function.  If council is relegated to activist functions it will either be representative, but not functional, or active, but not representative.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Question? by Kyle Szarzynski</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/question/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle Szarzynski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=204#comment-119</guid>
		<description>Agree with Danny, though I do appreciate the thought.  The truth is funding for student organizations was never really a principal concern for most people.  Groups like PAVE and SOL had little role in driving this campaign, and even they ended up being concerned about more issues than just their funding.  A top-down system will never be acceptable to grassroots progressives.  I can&#039;t tell you how many former ASMers - people going back to the ninth and sixth sessions even - wanted to see this Constitution killed because of their positive experiences of organizing within ASM in previous years.  You&#039;d probably be surprised to know the horror of former ASM radicals/leaders at what was being proposed, and it&#039;s pretty demonstrative of what I and others feel were the real problems with the new Constitution. 

A better place to begin a conversation between the two sides starts with your previous post, which is very insightful, despite some disagreements I may have.  Council is indeed an organizational mess and it will be a great challenge for a (hopefully successful) slate of progressives to reconcile what it means to be a &quot;legislator&quot; with the grassroots element.  No one would contend that combining the two is an easy task, which is why the few progressives currently involved in ASM will have to play a large role in educating future members about the jumbled mess that is our student government. 

Within the next few days, a core group will be meeting to discuss strategy, vision and concrete plans for what we would like to see for the future of ASM.  While larger social justice concerns will have to be intricately tied to anything we do, the bulk of our platform will be around fairly uncontroversial progressive issues - tuition/financial aid, diversity, student empowerment/democratization of the university and socially responsible investment.  The truth is these are things that most students agree with, including most members of the Constitutional Committee.  There is no reason why these plans should invite a backlash from anyone outside of the far right.

The implementation of these plans is, of course, the hard part, which is why we are interested in making this coalition as broad as our core principles allow.  Much of your advice seems sound and welcome, and it is a conversation that should continue among everyone interested in fighting for student issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with Danny, though I do appreciate the thought.  The truth is funding for student organizations was never really a principal concern for most people.  Groups like PAVE and SOL had little role in driving this campaign, and even they ended up being concerned about more issues than just their funding.  A top-down system will never be acceptable to grassroots progressives.  I can&#8217;t tell you how many former ASMers &#8211; people going back to the ninth and sixth sessions even &#8211; wanted to see this Constitution killed because of their positive experiences of organizing within ASM in previous years.  You&#8217;d probably be surprised to know the horror of former ASM radicals/leaders at what was being proposed, and it&#8217;s pretty demonstrative of what I and others feel were the real problems with the new Constitution. </p>
<p>A better place to begin a conversation between the two sides starts with your previous post, which is very insightful, despite some disagreements I may have.  Council is indeed an organizational mess and it will be a great challenge for a (hopefully successful) slate of progressives to reconcile what it means to be a &#8220;legislator&#8221; with the grassroots element.  No one would contend that combining the two is an easy task, which is why the few progressives currently involved in ASM will have to play a large role in educating future members about the jumbled mess that is our student government. </p>
<p>Within the next few days, a core group will be meeting to discuss strategy, vision and concrete plans for what we would like to see for the future of ASM.  While larger social justice concerns will have to be intricately tied to anything we do, the bulk of our platform will be around fairly uncontroversial progressive issues &#8211; tuition/financial aid, diversity, student empowerment/democratization of the university and socially responsible investment.  The truth is these are things that most students agree with, including most members of the Constitutional Committee.  There is no reason why these plans should invite a backlash from anyone outside of the far right.</p>
<p>The implementation of these plans is, of course, the hard part, which is why we are interested in making this coalition as broad as our core principles allow.  Much of your advice seems sound and welcome, and it is a conversation that should continue among everyone interested in fighting for student issues.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Question? by Critical Badger</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/question/#comment-118</link>
		<dc:creator>Critical Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=204#comment-118</guid>
		<description>No. There are irreconcilable differences in the philosophies between the vote yes and no groups. Furthermore, an emboldened vote no group has plans to slate and win as much power as possible on the current ASM. That is more valuable than a Constitution 2.0 to a side that can now use the carcass of ASM&#039;s dead body to supplement outside interests (e.g. you&#039;ll see ASM taking more stances on social justice issues).

GSSF groups alone are not that powerful. An endorsement from &quot;Sex Out Loud&quot; does nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No. There are irreconcilable differences in the philosophies between the vote yes and no groups. Furthermore, an emboldened vote no group has plans to slate and win as much power as possible on the current ASM. That is more valuable than a Constitution 2.0 to a side that can now use the carcass of ASM&#8217;s dead body to supplement outside interests (e.g. you&#8217;ll see ASM taking more stances on social justice issues).</p>
<p>GSSF groups alone are not that powerful. An endorsement from &#8220;Sex Out Loud&#8221; does nothing.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accountability and the future of ASM by Critical Badger</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/accountability-and-the-future-of-asm/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Critical Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 07:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=175#comment-116</guid>
		<description>ty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ty</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accountability and the future of ASM by wilounge</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/accountability-and-the-future-of-asm/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>wilounge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=175#comment-114</guid>
		<description>There you go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There you go.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accountability and the future of ASM by The Critical Badger</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/accountability-and-the-future-of-asm/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>The Critical Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=175#comment-113</guid>
		<description>Can you like, put quotes on my comment where I site your post? I forgot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you like, put quotes on my comment where I site your post? I forgot.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accountability and the future of ASM by The Critical Badger</title>
		<link>http://wilounge.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/accountability-and-the-future-of-asm/#comment-112</link>
		<dc:creator>The Critical Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wilounge.wordpress.com/?p=175#comment-112</guid>
		<description>

&lt;blockquote&gt;On a related note, the lack of democracy means ASM fails to attract talented leaders from across campus.  Ideally student leaders from organizations would see the opportunity to serve in ASM as a step up.  However, a position on ASM holds no status.  As a result, ASM’s ability to recruit talent is stifled. &lt;/blockquote&gt;



Very interesting point. I can tell you in the &quot;moderate Dem&quot; circle, being Chair of the College Dems, running a campus-wide campaign (think Obama), or running for office (city or county) is given higher prestige. The later, especially in a post-Judge world, the District 8 City Council seat, is in my view considered the &quot;top&quot; spot, amongst politicos and interested students who might otherwise rise to the top of ASM. This is not necessarily bad, but in any space with limited resources -- as UW has 40,000 potential bodies -- ASM has to win some of these competitions for attention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>On a related note, the lack of democracy means ASM fails to attract talented leaders from across campus.  Ideally student leaders from organizations would see the opportunity to serve in ASM as a step up.  However, a position on ASM holds no status.  As a result, ASM’s ability to recruit talent is stifled. </p></blockquote>
<p>Very interesting point. I can tell you in the &#8220;moderate Dem&#8221; circle, being Chair of the College Dems, running a campus-wide campaign (think Obama), or running for office (city or county) is given higher prestige. The later, especially in a post-Judge world, the District 8 City Council seat, is in my view considered the &#8220;top&#8221; spot, amongst politicos and interested students who might otherwise rise to the top of ASM. This is not necessarily bad, but in any space with limited resources &#8212; as UW has 40,000 potential bodies &#8212; ASM has to win some of these competitions for attention.</p>
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